What do you think of the debates over the existence of God? As I’ve said before, I think these debates are ultimately a good thing. Learning the points of view of others and having to teach your belief is always a beneficial exercise. And having your beliefs exposed to scrutiny forces you to think about them in greater depth and detail.
But as far as trying to “convince” the atheist that there is a God by formal debates, is probably useless. I think Clement of Alexandria hit the nail on the head almost 2,000 years ago when he said, “I frequented the schools of the philosophers, where, however, I heard nothing but dogmatic assertions and equally dogmatic refutations endlessly put forth—formal disputations, artfully constructed syllogisms, and subtle conclusions. . . . Neither side ever brought forth proof that really convinced me inside, because the statements and definitions of things passed as true or false not from the actual nature of things or the real truth, but always according to the skill and cleverness of the people putting them forth.”
Getting laughs, oohs and ahhhs from your supportive cohort group whilst using sophomoric jabs and cunning insults doesn’t necessarily teach truth or expose error.
Although, there are some examples in the scriptures of militant persecutors being exposed to the power of God and acknowledging Him to the point that they repent and follow, like Paul, Alma and the son’s of Mosiah and one of my favourites is the lawyer Zeezrum. Can you imagine? A lawyer repenting, will miracles never cease?
But I think the real benefit of hearing these debates comes to those people that are somewhere in-between, that teeter between belief and unbelief. These people just need some plausible evidence to give them enough of a reason to believe, then the necessary desire can motivate them to investigate and do the experiments required to know for themselves if there is truth to the claims.
I see in God’s plan, that most of the time there is just enough evidence to get you on the path and at any time you can deny it or accept it. But, once you exercise some faith to action on that evidence, you get more evidence. And as you grow in obedience to what light and knowledge is given you, you receive more and more. But for the hyper sceptic, there will never be enough proof to even take that first step. Faith is an integral part of the plan and this is always were the debate over such things really does fall apart for the unbelievers, and I can see the point. I really can see from their point of view why they can’t believe. But I do believe, and I have come to see that it is a gift. In fact, if there is a difference between belief and knowledge, I should then say, I know there is a God.
But Ricky Gervais says nobody knows if there is a God. “I’m an agnostic atheist technically, Agnostic means, no on knows. So everyone’s technically agnostic, we don’t know.”
In these debates between atheists and Christians, this always gets me, “nobody knows,” because nobody has ever seen God. And this belief is prevalent among many Christian denominations as well. LDS, what do you think of this argument, that no one has ever seen God? If I believed that were truly the case, I would probably be an atheist myself. How could you participate in ritual worship and believe the doctrines of a God that has never shown himself?
The scriptures that have been handed down over the ages teach that Adam walked and talked with God, had fallen and was then given commandments and an advocate that would guide him back into the presence of God. The plan would develop in Adam a stronger, more God-like character that would ultimately change his very nature and make him worthy and capable to inherit all that the Father has to offer. Adam was taught the gospel and God’s plan of salvation for the human race and he taught this to his posterity, and many of them saw and talked with God, and they taught their posterity, and they saw and talked with God and so on.
So who wrote the book of Genesis? Now, if you just said God, I need you to focus your beam quite a bit more or you’re going to be lost. Moses wrote Genesis. But where did Moses get the histories recorded in Genesis? He got them from the records that were passed down and available to him in his day. From Adam to Noah to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the sacred records were written, kept and passed down till Moses’ day. Yet we don’t have any of those records today. But Moses must have had access to them. Genesis is clearly an abridgement of many other records, and Moses only briefly summarises the creation of the world to the time of Abraham. There are only ten chapters covering the creation of the world to the time of Abraham. Then there are 40 chapters covering Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph. It’s important to realise that Moses is a restoration prophet and Genesis is the back story to Moses and the children of Israel and how they ended up as slaves in Egypt. Genesis is written in almost storybook form as a brief overview of their family line from Adam to their time, to teach this people who had forgotten who they were and their relationship to God.
To restore Israel to a knowledge of their God and the covenant to them, made through their fathers, Moses must convince his people who God is, that he is claiming them, and that Moses is his prophet, in whom they may trust. He was able to give signs and wonders to the people so that they could learn to trust the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob instead of the Egyptian gods they had come to believe in.
But Moses spoke with God, he saw him, and eventually Moses spoke with God “face to face” as one man speaketh unto his friend.” At another meeting, the 70 Elders of Israel with a few others also saw and heard God. On another occasion, the entire congregation of Israel saw the glory of God and heard him speak. Exodus 19 The history of this experience was written so that their children would never forget these testimonies.
In time, despite the many recorded testimonies and the many prophecies foretelling the downfall and scattering of house of Israel, disbelief prevailed. From time to time, God would show himself to someone, call them as a prophet to testify of the reality of God, point out the fulfilment of prophecies and regather the believers to find out for themselves. The Old Testament is filled with witnesses who saw, heard and were given proof that God existed. The only time there were breaks in this knowledge was when disbelief prevailed and the prophets were usually persecuted and killed.
The New Testament is another time of restoration. This time, the prophecies of a Messiah or Savior are fulfilled when Jehovah himself comes as that restoration prophet. He builds up leaders and believers, and they see the resurrected and glorified Christ face to face.
The first one to see him is Mary Magdalene. What’s written in John 20:17 when Christ says to her, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father…” is a poor translation, it should read more like, “you’ve got to let go now.” I think he had to peel her off of him. The record also states that the other Mary saw him too “And they came and held him by the feet” Matthew 28:9 But not even Jesus’ apostles could get themselves to believe those women when they reported that Jesus was alive, that they had talked with him and touched him. But Christ eventually comes to them too, allowing them to touch him and talk with him. But Thomas wasn’t there, and when the women and the other apostles tell him that Jesus was resurrected, he can’t bring himself to believe it either. I think its a little unfair giving him the title “doubting Thomas” when the other 10 apostles didn’t believe either, in fact, Jesus chastised all of them for their “unbelief and hardness of heart.” Mark 16:14
And was this a one or two time visit? No. How long did Christ stay with them? It was 40 days of teaching and strengthening the apostles for the task ahead of them. But the eye witnesses don’t stop there. Once the apostles pull themselves together and start spreading the news, they gather in the believers. And the glorified, resurrected Christ appears to more than 500 people in unmistakable power and glory, so that they can become witnesses. Hundreds and hundreds of witnesses armed with absolute knowledge that Jesus is who he says he is, go and testify of it to the world.
But, for many in this world, the Biblical testimony simply isn’t enough to convince them, therefore, another record was miraculously given of a people entirely separated from those in Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon testifies that before the destruction of Jerusalem at the time of the Biblical prophet Jeremiah, a branch of Israel that was lead out of Jerusalem to ancient America. They saw and heard God over a thousand years of their history. After the resurrection of Christ, they also saw him, touched him and heard him speak. Thousands felt the wounds in his hands, feet and side and recorded the testimony for future generations who would doubt, giving support to the biblical testimonies, and an exhortation to all, to do the necessary experimentation to find out for themselves if the testimonies of Christ are true.
And finally, in modern times we have the process of God choosing prophets again, to restore the Kingdom and the gospel in its fulness for the last time. And these witnesses are to testify that they have seen and heard God, to bear witness to a disbelieving world that the ancient records are true, that God is real and does live today, and that his plan is still in motion to the very end. The Biblical principle of, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established,” 2 Corinthians 13:1 is fulfilled with these three different witnesses. Now, we know these testaments of Jesus Christ will not convince the whole world, but those testimonies do convince quite a few new people every year from every nation, kindred, tongue and people, as well as strengthen time and again, those who already believe.
LDS know that Joseph Smith and others saw deity and ministering angels as recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants, but I think we forget just how numerous the recorded accounts are. And we forget how many other people besides Joseph Smith and the apostles experienced them as well.
I’ll be pointing out some amazing research from a book that I can’t recommend enough called “The Saviour in Kirtland,” by Karl Anderson. Many years ago, at the request of the late Apostle Neil A. Maxwell, Brother Anderson was asked to tap into the “Mother-load of un-mined Christology in Kirtland” and write a book.
He goes through the surviving documentation to find all the [currently known] and documented names of people who were present when ministering angels or deity were seen. In some cases documentation states that hundreds were present. I’ll only use a couple examples of other people, besides Joseph Smith and the apostles, to give you a flavour of the recorded documentation.
In the 1830’s after the church had been gathered and established in Kirtland Ohio, a recent convert from New York was confronted by a well known atheist who openly challenged the existence of God. Wandle Mace adamantly told him, “I know there is a God. . . . Our God is the god of the Bible . . . holy men testify of him[,] having seen and heard[,] as having talked with him face to face which facts are recorded in the Bible. This same God has manifested himself to men in our day, men whom we know, and I have heard bore this testimony, that they have seen God, and that he lives.”
In 1884, George Q. Cannon, first councelor to President John Taylor, firmly reiterates that large numbers of Saints saw the Savior. As a young man, Brother Cannon met many of the Kirtland witnesses. Speaking of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery seeing the Savior in the Kirtland Temple, he said, “These witnesses [Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery] are also supplemented by hundreds of others who have beheld in vision and otherwise, glorious personages in these last days.”
He clearly affirms that there were large numbers of members who had seen the Savior. He was a young man at the time and he knew these people. The Kirtland period is called the “Pentecostal” period in church history for a reason. The New Testament events at Pentecost were to provide evidence of the resurrected Saviour and the apostles authority to act in his name. At one time, there were over five hundred eye witnesses who would then testify to the world of what they saw and heard.
Likewise in Kirtland, the Church was finally organised with apostles, priesthood structure and the first temple, endowing the apostles and others with the power and authority to go through out the world to gather Israel with hundreds of eye witnesses of the resurrected Christ and his work.
“There are men alive who have beheld the Son of God, who have heard His voice, and who have been ministered unto by Him in this our day and generation. In the face of these testimonies, which cannot be impeached successfully, is it any wonder that faith grows in the hearts of the people of God, the Latter-day Saints?” George Q. Cannon
On March 18, 1833, Zebedee Coltrin saw the Savior in the School of the Prophets. “At one of these meetings after the organization of the school . . . when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, . . . each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, [I saw] a personage . . . Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and supposed the others did, and Joseph answered that is Jesus, the Son of God… Another person came . . . He was surrounded as with a flame of fire. I experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
President John Taylor, who knew Brother Coltrin in Kirtland, invited him in 1883, that’s 50 years later, to share his experiences with the School of the Prophets in Salt Lake City where he testified, “I saw Him.” They then began to ask questions, one of which was about God’s clothing. “I did not discover His clothing for He was surrounded as with a flame of fire, which was so brilliant that I could not discover anything else but His person. I saw His hands, His legs, His feet, His eyes, nose, mouth, head and body in the shape and form of a perfect man. . . . This appearance was so grand and overwhelming that it seemed I should melt down in His presence, and the sensation was so powerful that it thrilled through my whole system and I felt it in the marrow of my bones.” He goes on to say that at the conclusion of the experience, Joseph Smith said, “Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that They exist…”
As the Kingdom of God was established on earth, you had leaders that would become especial witnesses of God and many other’s that would support those apostolic testimonies that God and His Christ do in fact live. And those apostles and early missionaries suffered for those testimonies just like the apostles and missionaries of old.
This latter-day experience with deity, sheds a lot of light on the Biblical writings describing the experience of seeing God. The example that first comes to my mind is when Moses has his first direct contact with God, being called as his prophet. Moses’ experience with the burning bush that doesn’t consume is usually depicted like this, with a little bush on fire and Moses talking to it.
Our generation has so much technological innovation that we have difficulty detaching our experience in modern society, to relate to pre-technology generations. So before the electric light bulb, what was the only source of man made light? The only source of man made light was fire light. So these pre-electric light records, describe the brightness of the Lord as “fire.”
In the case with Moses’ first encounter with God, there is foliage separating Moses from the presence of the Lord. Later on, in the tabernacle and then the temple, it is a veil that separates man from God until purification and sanctification has taken place, because “no unclean thing can dwell … in his presence…” Moses 6:57 In the wilderness, the bush is the separating veil and God is standing behind the bush. Moses cannot see the Lord, but his glory cannot be contained and shines through the bush, so Moses describes what he is seeing as fire, the only thing he knows that can produce brightness. And Moses is no dummy, he knows he’s not talking to a bush.
In this case he doesn’t see more than God’s glory through the bush, but later, Moses himself goes through a purification and sanctification process and he is admitted into the presence of the Lord, to speak with him face to face. But Moses explains that a change had to occur in his imperfect mortal body to be able to endure the Glory of God and not die. In fact Moses is told that nobody can experience the full glory of God in the body and live. (Exodus 33)
So now when you read these descriptions of a flaming pillar, burning bush, eyes like the flame of fire, a flaming sword, a countenance like lightning, brighter than noon day… all these are describing intense luster. John even describes the Lord’s feet as “polished brass” which is a poetic description of a blinding bright glare.
In a brief account of Joseph Smith’s first vision written at the request of a news paper editor, Joseph Smith explained that he, “…was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noonday.” 1 March 1842 (Wentworth Letter)
In an earlier account he described, “A pillar of fire appeared above my head. It presently rested down upon me and filled me with joy unspeakable. A personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame, which was spread all around and yet nothing consumed.” Journal, 9–11 November 1835
This is interesting because just like Zebedee Coltrin said he “experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness.” The power and intensity was so profound for Joseph Smith in the grove that he fully expected the woods and foliage would be consumed by it. fire light fire
In another hand written account, Joseph first describes the experience with the word fire, then crosses it out. He then writes light and crosses it out. He finally settles on “glory” to describe not only the brightness, but the physical experience involved.
Ever since the first man, people have seen God. And in our time people see God and are ministered to by angels. That frank and open attitude that was prevalent in the early days of the church, got them persecuted to the point of death. They were driven from New York and Ohio, they were driven out of Missouri with a government order for the state militias to exterminate them. They were persecuted in Illinois and were finally driven out the United States America and went to the untamed wilderness of the Rocky Mountains to live their religion in peace.
After the persecution in Missouri Joseph Smith said, “…it is not always wise to relate all the truth. Even Jesus, the Son of God had to refrain from doing so, and had to restrain His feelings many times for the safety of Himself and His followers, and had to conceal the righteous purposes of His heart in relation to many things pertaining to His Father’s kingdom. When still a boy He had all the intelligence, necessary to enable Him to rule and govern the kingdom of the Jews, and could reason with the wisest and most profound doctors of law and divinity, and make their theories and practice to appear like folly compared with the wisdom He possessed; but He was a boy only, and lacked physical strength even to defend His own person… So it is with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; we have the revelation of Jesus, and the knowledge within us is sufficient to organize a righteous government upon the earth, and to give universal peace to all mankind, if they would receive it, but we lack the physical strength, as did our Savior when a child, to defend our principles, and we have of necessity to be afflicted, persecuted and smitten, and to bear it patiently…” The Saints were counselled from that point on to be much more prudent how openly they talked about their experiences to the world, especially after the murder of Joseph Smith.
Now I need the unbelievers out there to know, that we know that you think this is absolutely unbelievable. I am fully aware that the atheists think this is foolishness and to many mainstream Christians it is a stumbling block that is beyond their ability to believe. And this is exactly why LDS sit at a separate table in the debate of whether or not there is a God, and why we are not usually welcomed under the umbrella of mainstream Christianity. I understand it’s difficult for those who don’t believe, but at least you must admit that it falls within the parameters and patterns found in ancient scripture, with most people easily proclaiming a belief in dead prophets, while rejecting living prophets.
But here is a question for you. Do you disbelieve because you are incapable of believing, or because it’s not true? There’s a difference. History is rife with stories of people not believing things that end up being true, regardless of their ability to believe or not. This is definitely a subject for another episode.
I know there is a God and one of my many pieces of evidence is the multitude of witnesses, ancient and modern. For the LDS to hear this claim that no one has ever seen God, is a little frustrating since we have been trying to tell the world for going on 200 years now.
In a very recent press conference, when apostle Russell M. Nelson became the 17th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, he openly and publicly said, “Our divine mandate is to go to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. Helping to prepare the world for the second coming of the Lord. This we will do with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ knowing that he is in charge. This is his work and his church, we are his servants. I declare my devotion to God, our Eternal Father and to his son Jesus Christ. I know them, love them and pledge to serve them, and you, with every remaining breath of my life.” I have no doubt that what he said is true.
